In this post, I say I and me a lot. Kind of self-indulgent. But writing helps me get my thoughts together. Perhaps it will help some of you too.
I just got back from Camp FI. I’m so tired right now. But that’s a good thing. I’m exhausted because the event was amazing and oozed with infinite energy in a beautiful setting:
There was late night salsa dancing, board games, hikes, and conversations about travel, food, music, van living, Boston, fear, kids, and a million other things. Note that I didn’t say money. While there were conversations about dollars and investing, most of the talk was much more interesting. Money is the starting point and gateway to much of the awesome stuff life has to offer.
Most of the folks at camp had heard Ramit’s podcast with Mindy and me. It was surreal and a bit uncomfortable. MMM himself gave a talk about some of the resulting chatter. (Thanks for defending me friend!)
I’m not sure I would have gone on Ramit’s show and aired my emotional baggage (money issues are never about money) if I would have known the conversation would have blown up like it did. But here we are. No tradebacks.
One issue I have with Ramit is that he freely encourages people to live a rich life through spending. But on what? I believe that most people don’t actually know what will make them happy. It probably isn’t the Shiny New Thing on the Superbowl ad. A much more interesting and difficult conversation would be about true fulfillment and happiness.
Since being on the podcast, I’ve been thinking. A lot.
What could I buy that would make me happier or my life easier?
Friend With Benefits
Here is what I’ve come to:
1. Daily life is great*. Even if I had 10x the money I do now, I wouldn’t change my daily life. I like my house. I like my neighbors. Eating at home is great (Mindy is a great cook!). Our cars are mostly (see #4 below) fine. I don’t want change here.
2. Simple life is good. I dread buying objects or bringing anything into my home. While I’m not a minimalist, I just don’t want any more stuff to clutter up my house and mind.
3. Making life easier isn’t expensive and worthwhile. I used to book the cheapest flight even if it left at 6am. The issue with doing this is that my brain won’t let me sleep the night before because I worry about missing my flight:
- Brain: We have a flight tomorrow at 6am.
- Me: I set 3 alarms.
- Brain: I don’t give a crap. I’m still going to keep you up all night with anxiety.
I also pay more for nonstop flights and PreCheck (I’m nuts for not signing up for this earlier!).
I like my fast computer and phone with a good camera. Noise cancelling headphones help me keep my sanity during the day.
But none of those things are expensive. Let’s get down to it.
4. Tesla. Yes, I will buy one. I’m a car person who likes road trips. A Model Y will be an awesome vehicle for cross country adventures. This will cost about $40,000.
5. Fun with friends. Many of my favorite memories come from time spent with friends. Backyard BBQs, birthday parties, and visits in random parts of the world. I’d guess that this is a primary source of happiness for most people: The football game is fun, but what really makes it great is sharing the experience with friends. So, how do I use money to create and elevate social experiences?
- Travel focused around people, not places: There are many corners of the world I’d like to see. However, I’ll prioritize places where I have friends. I’m really thankful to have met great people all over the world from my time in the FI community.
- B. F. E.: The B is short for Big and the E short for Event. You know what the F is. It would be super awesome to rent a castle or mansion somewhere for a couple of weeks and invite friends to come hang out. Another idea is to buy a block of rooms on a cruise ship. The only rule is that no one is allowed to help pay. As net worth grows, I’ll host more BFEs. Note: It’s good to be my friend. I’m your friend with benefits. Not those kind of benefits. Get your mind out of the gutter.
6. Give it away. I think that most of us in the FI community tend to be very conservative with saving, investing, and spending. Some of us are going to end up with way more money than we need. Dying with millions is silly. I look forward to anonymously** giving away most of our nest egg.
At Peace With Money
For the first time in my life, I feel like I’m at peace with money. I don’t feel pressure to buy silly things. Much more important, I don’t feel pressure to hold back on renting a $15,000/week mansion and inviting 30 friends to come hang out.
I’d be curious to hear what y’all think:
- Am I nuts or on target?
- What purchase has made your life better?
- What purchase has made your life more fun?
- What spending hurts?
I’ve had a hell of a life. It’s so good, it barely feels real. And I think the best days are still ahead.
Life is good. Hell, it’s better than that. Life is B.F.G.
*Our core spending (mortgage food, insurance, utilities, random necessities) is less than $50,000/year.
**I have no desire to have my name on a building. I’d either give away money anonymously. I’m pretty silly, so a fun idea would be to put Frugalsaurus’ real name on something. 🙂
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I don’t think Ramit wants anyone to spend on random crap. It’s targeted spending on what you love, which sounds exactly like what you’re doing. Experiences with friends and even the Tesla is sorta experience focused – cross country drive, etc.
Maybe the podcast conversation worked?
I am not FI but still as I approach 50 I am more likely to say eff it, I’m spending the money on an experience (not random stuff). I don’t enjoy shopping and rarely get pleasure from stuff I buy. I’d much rather go hike or bike or just hang out outside – all basically free. I listened to the earlier podcast with your wife and really connected with the message there. My wife and I are working on our 10 year bucket list this summer.
“I’d much rather go hike or bike or just hang out outside.”
Yep, just being outside is pretty great. I go a little nuts if I don’t go for a walk every day.
After listening to the podcast, I felt more sure that the FIRE Movement in its current form is not the be all end all that its members push it to be. I get that it looks a little different for everyone, and I definitely have take a lot from it, but I could never buy the rigidity of seemingly not enjoying anything having to do with money (any purchases that might bring happiness). I get why you are so uncomfortable with spending, we come from a place of financial insecurity, and we never want to be in that position again, but I feel like the Ramit interview was incomplete, he probed and probed, and both you and Mindy were steadfast in your mindset, so used to pinching pennies, that your couldn’t entertain the idea of change. I appreciate that you are more open to change now, but what was really mind blowing to me, was how your daughter’s $20 brunch choice made you so uncomfortable. Imaging her internalizing your feelings, she had to be aware of it, and how that could affect her feelings on money in the future? In some ways I imagine she might completely do a 180, since by living with your thriftiness, maybe she’s felt like there’s been instances she’s felt like she’s done without. I hope you don’t take this too personally, I think there are a lot of people who go completely opposite of what we grew up with. I think making memories is the most important thing you can do, in many ways that’s the legacy you leave behind for your daughters, How can we make our lives worth living, do we find a purpose to the time that we have? Your really can’t put a price on that. Again, I’ve been following FIRE and have learned a lot, but I think I’ve been too cautious, and I want to learn from that. My husband and I are technically millionaires, but if the market crashes, prices go down, I want my life to mean more than just my account totals. Our family just purchased a 20 acre farm, and are in the process of getting it back to its former days, we will move there in the next year, and my husband can retire. Our 2 oldest were selected to go to Japan as part of a sister city organization, and again, FIRE has really helped me tailor my own plan for how I want us to live our lives,. With all of those decisions, the money was just there, and we only had to think about how our family would benefit.
“I appreciate that you are more open to change now, but what was really mind blowing to me, was how your daughter’s $20 brunch choice made you so uncomfortable. Imaging her internalizing your feelings, she had to be aware of it, and how that could affect her feelings on money in the future?”
The weird thing about this is that Mindy and I both thought the breakfast was expensive, but we didn’t talk about it at the time or even later. It came up for the first time on Ramit. But perhaps the fact that we both thought about it is a problem in itself?
I think you’re right and it’s a fine line. Just today, my daughter was looking at tickets for a local musical and said, “The price is only $150/ticket.” $150 is nothing to us, but 10% of her net worth. I didn’t probe, but took note of her comment. I do think she understands money and probably make the comment frmo our perspective, so I’m not worried.
Japan and a farm! Those are awesome adventures. Congratulations on understanding your priorities and living a life that fulfilling to you.
Excellent and helpful reflections. Also, the world is a better place for you all doing that podcast episode. Certainly the FIRE world is. Oh, and rather ironically, I’m writing this as I’m in transit to catch a crack-o’-dawn flight. . . . But the flight is to a meetup of a buncha old friends who haven’t seen each other in ages. So, a full circle of events!
Thank you and I hope your trip is a good one!
I see the word Peace in your blog title, and that’s quite powerful.
I agree with FI for the People, that the world is a better place for having had the discussion. The podcast interview illuminated for listeners the “space” between safety/security and peace.
Safety/security is as American as apple pie. Our culture is saturated with stories and lived experiences of scarcity and fear. We don’t hear so many stories celebrating peace and ease.
The things you will start to spend money on sound like things that will bring more peace, joy and ease in your life. And you mention giving (now or in the future). In giving, one can bring peace and ease to others.
When those of us who are wealthy are willing to challenge our fears and break out of our comfort zones, we can be more sensitive/open to the experiences of others.
Safety will always be temporary, peace perhaps can be sustainable. I’m still learning this three years after FIREing.
Thank you Jolene! I like this a lot:
“Safety will always be temporary, peace perhaps can be sustainable.” Perhaps our goal should be able to be at peace even when the storm churns around us.
I do think that emphasizing safety holds us back. All of us could certainly hold out for a 2.5% withdrawal rates, but we’re doing it at the expense of our best years.
I look forward to discussing all of these things with you this weekend!
Oh my goodness ! I just finally watched the podcast, and Ramit was brutal with you guys! But — so worth it.
I feel like we are in a similar situation – 20 years older than you guys and retired, and with half as much money. But we aren’t going to live forever… so we LOVE that we don’t have to worry about monthly bills at all. But it is hard to watch my husband spend hours and hours and hours, over weeks and weeks, trying to “optimize” the insurance costs. In the end we saved $217 over the year on insurance. I know he feels good when he finally makes a decision, but I am not sure that he should spend that much time on it. And I know I do not want to spend as much time listening to him talk about it as I had to. Sigh…
And there is a French restaurant in town that I love, but we don’t go to it because my husband gets upset as soon as he sees the cost of a vegetable serving. UGH…. No answers here, just that I appreciate you talking about it.
Ann! Your husband sounds a lot like me! Perhaps he should watch the podcast too!
My advice to him: The French restaurant means a lot to you, so y’all should definitely go!
Next time you’re in Colorado, I’ll have a nice chat with him! 🙂
Carl,
I’ve been meaning to followup after we finished watching the interview. Jenni and I both enjoyed it. You and Mindy were certainly struggling–it felt very “real”. I think it’s great for your readers to see how you handle the difficulties you face with money and decision making at the part of the “money timeline” you’re on.
Fortunately, Jenni and I read Ramit’s “I Will Teach You to Be Rich” close to the publish date back in 2009. The book came through strong recommendations from Tim Ferriss. I think that it served us well as a counter balance to reading like Get Rich Slowly. Once FIRE, MMM, and The Simple Path to Wealth became big hits–IWTYTBR has been a solid way to keep perspective. Ramit, in recent years, seems to have come back as that counter balance in the personal finance community. I think that’s great.
You, Mindy, and the family have done an amazing job of reaching a very high level of financial stability. And Ramit’s underlying point seems to be that “you’ve made it”, and “now what?”. Lots of FIRE folks don’t have much of a plan beyond reaching FIRE. It’s just sort of “…then I’ll do whatever I want!” But, like anything else in life, it’s very hard to break that momentum and mindset you’ve built for years and years. Like he said–it feels comfortable. Bigger numbers are a security blanket. This overarching point of realizing we need to transition from saving to spending is the most valuable takeaway, I believe.
Now how you do that… well, that’s up to you. And that’s what you three spent a lot of the podcast talking about; the specifics as to what to spend on. He did a great job of getting you two to visualize different possibilities and make it feel a little more “real”, in the hope that you’d take him up on…something! I think that’s the idea. It doesn’t really matter what you’re spending on so much as it matters that you’re continuing to find purpose, pleasure, meaning, and satisfaction from doing so.
I think it’s easy to interpret this as encouraging people to spend frivolously. But, I also think that’s out of context. You guys are at the stage you can afford it and you’re trying to be opti…effective with the resources you have now. And I can see why he saw that as a problem. Generally speaking, each additional dollar spent on a higher quality version of a thing/experience doesn’t yield a proportional improvement. In other words, a $30 watch isn’t 1/10th as good as a $300 watch. That’s the part I think you two are tripping over. It doesn’t seem “worth it”. But that’s kind of the nature of spending more on higher quality things. As you have more money to spend on things you really care about, it’s more that your subjective experience is improved with the thing you care about. Less about the objective view that the $300 watch isn’t 10x better than the $30 watch. More that the finer timepiece is better in a way that you care about and that makes your life better in a way that $270 more in a bank account wouldn’t.
And last, I have a problem where I think of intention with our money long term. Hopefully a large chunk is donated over the course of our lives. Each dollar I “waste” is also one that isn’t going to help others. This would have been how I responded to Ramit about not wanting to expand our spending too far. It’s the difficult balance we are trying to find. You might experience something similar — worrying about your children and their welfare along with the million possibilities life could throw at them. And, I know you guys want to give a lot away too.
Anyway, with this novel complete — thanks for doing this interview and talking about it with the community. I think it’s been healthy for a lot of us! Cheers and happy 4th to you and yours!
Chris@TTL recently posted…How We Spent 46 Days in Europe for Under $7K (May Budget)
Chris, I always appreciate your wisdom.
“Each dollar I “waste” is also one that isn’t going to help others. This would have been how I responded to Ramit about not wanting to expand our spending too far.”
I like this a lot.
I hope we meet up in person soon where we can talk more about all of this.
I can see where you are coming from and I agree with you. If I had 10x the money I wouldn’t do
Anything differently either.
In fact (I’m going to get shot down verbally here) I’m
almost over it for travelling exotic places. I watched the ads and followed the steps and travelled a bit to understand it’s not really what fills my cup. I’m celebrating my kids grad in a different continent as I write this, a dream trip for a lot of people but I’ve recently (within the day) made peace with skipping Gravol and sea bands to survive the 16 hours in the air, I love my spacious house and routine, my home city offers an array of food from different cultures and apparently there is a temperature of hot enough my old self can handle and I’ll never complain of our winters as much.
I always thought I’d always have wanderlust and suddenly I’m at the point where I’m actually content and at peace not to be so thirsty to be somewhere else. Travel is a personal thing as well as money and I’m totally ok living vicariously through my kids and their wanderlust.
It’s like suddenly I know myself. I’m at peace with the amount of crap I own: in fact some are facing an eviction soon. I’m ok spending time instead with friends and family and in the future I’m redirecting time to these things.
So I get it. Thanks for writing
I also think travel is overrated! I have to get my thoughts together and then maybe I’ll post a better response, but if you’re not happy at home, perhaps move!
OK, here’s a couple thoughts:
I don’t like travel where you go to a place for a week and run around and see a bunch of stuff. But I think it would be fun to plop down in different places for a month of more. I’d mostly keep my same routine of reading, writing, and walking, but the change of scenery would make like a little more interesting.
Exotic travel: The FI community seems to be obsessed with it, but there is so much beauty and cool sh*t to see just here in the ‘States. Heck, I’ve been in Colorado for 10 years and have barely scratched the surface (mountains).
I’d consider slow(er) travel. Go someplace really interesting and stay there for two months.
we used to cheap out on travel (but not food and drink when we got there). just like you mentioned we always got the budget 6am flight and maybe stayed wednesday to saturday for cheaper hotels and flights. finally we had enough of that. so when we go to new orleans in october we got flights at 11 or noon that got in just in time for happy hour and dinner and are staying in our favorite hotel for all 4 nights. we had offers of places to stay but once a year we can splurge and not have to worry about optimizing every dime.
same with our big yearly road trip. instead of plowing through a 12 hour drive we drove 6+6 with a motel stay halfway last month. a couple of hundred bucks makes for more enjoyable travel without the endurance contest.
Just so happy you are FINALLY going to buy the Tesla.
Haha! I think it will be a red, Model Y LR. What do you think of that?
I’m a car person myself, but the kids want the big space in the back of the Y. Also, I could car-camp in the back.
Hey Carl, great post!!! I really appreciate you sharing your journey, post-interview reflections, and current net worth. How cool that your original goal of $1M has already gotten to 4X in such a short number of years! I’d love to answer your 4 questions one-by-one:
Am I nuts or on target? I totally agree that Ramit likes to vilify the FIRE community for being too focused on deprivation. It seems to be like he’s judging the community as an outsider as if he has never met people like you, MMM, Brad of ChooseFI, and Mad Fientist who want to be efficient with their money, yes, but also want to have valuable life experiences in the process. I also worry that his message of loosening the reigns on spending is an issue for such a small 0.001% of the population, that it is dangerous advice to dispense to a general audience on a platform like Netflix, because most Americans are living month-to-month and definitely do not have a problem of over-saving.
What purchase has made your life better? During COVID, my mental health was hanging by a thread when I was living with 2 roommates (and then 3 roommates, when I invited my then-boyfriend to stay with us). To make matters worse, the BF and I were both working remotely from home and so my bedroom because a home office as well. After that, my plurge purchase was a 1BR condo with all the modern luxuries I hadn’t had a chance to enjoy up until that point because I was in the Hustle phase of my life. Having my own non-tender parking spot, in-unit laundry, dual pane windows, central AC, my own fridge… I’m loving life and will only go back to living with roommates if that roommate is a romantic partner.
What purchase has made your life more fun? Probably my AirPods Pro. I use them every single day–working out, listening to podcasts while walking, on airplanes–and they have really enhanced every one of those experiences tremendously.
What spending hurts? When I go out to eat, my preference is almost always fast-casual, unpretentious food that skews toward healthy and fresh options. The prices these days are nuts! I think most fancy restaurants are just hype, so when I go to one of the many overpriced spots that charges a week’s worth of groceries for a single meal, I almost always leave disappointed. On the positive side, that sorta thing does motivate me to learn new ways to make similar things at home, where I can save money while also using healthier ingredients, so I guess there is value in the inspiration it can provide.
Jeff, thanks for your answers!
The peace and convenience that came with your condo purchase is priceless. That seems like a total no-brainer decision.
I’ve tried a few fancy meals myself and most just haven’t been memorable. I once went to a Michelin rated Mexican restaurant and while it was great, Taco Bell gives me at least 80% of the satisfaction. Haha! A better middle-ground are some of the Mexican places here in town!
Overall, life just kinda feels surreal. I dreamed of crazy cars and similar nonsense as a kid. Now that we have the means to have it all, I want none of it.
I agree that Ramit’s advice sounds dangerous for most people. A friend who isn’t a big saver recently mentioned getting his book, and I was thinking they should start with some F.I.R.E material first, then go with Ramit after they have built their nest egg.
Lots of F.I.R.E. folks talk about enjoying life while being frugal. They are not mutually exclusive.
Last year I hired out a nice little townhouse in a small country town an hour out of Melbourne and invited my 2 nieces and my sons’ two girlfriends to come and stay for the weekend.
We had the BEST time. The girls didn’t know each other all that well (apart from the nieces, who are sisters, but they’d grown a little apart in their 20’s) so by the time the weekend was over we all had a much fuller appreciation for each other.
Next year I’ll do it again.
I don’t see anything wrong in what you are doing. If you are happy with your current spending and frugal habits, it doesn’t matter.
It actually seems like you are trying to live up to others expectations with your spending.
If you want to spend it, spend it…if not, save it.
If you are really unhappy, then make changes. If you are happy, stay happy.
I’m curious how you will feel without lots of big house projects going on. Having time can be really weird, but please give it some time and allow yourself to adapt.
I’ve wondered the same thing. Thank you for the advice!
I think you are right on target. When I started listening to Ramit, I was a lot like you were before the podcast. We had some money, but I was pretty frugal with everything. I started listening to him and it changed my world view a bit, Just enough so that I agreed to buy a boat and sail around the world with the fella once we hit our FI number.
What purchase has made your life better?
The most recent purchase of our time (we needed a few bedrooms painted and we hired it out!)
Also, I bought a Eufy room vacuum and I think I have more than doubled my return on investment.
What purchase has made your life more fun?
We just helped pay for our daughter’s wedding. It was a fabulous event!
What spending hurts?
My husband thinks having someone come to clean the house once a month is justified. It hurts me, but I like that I am helping a small business.
We just hired a cleaner for the first time! It feels funny, but it frees us up.
Nice work on the wedding! Spending on great memories seems like a no-brainer.
The Brunch comment hit me in your earlier post… Last fall, my family (5 of us, 3 kids 11 & under) were driving back from visiting relatives in a different state. We stopped at a rest area for gas, bathrooms, and a quick snack. Growing up in a frugal household, we never ever ordered anything to drink except water. At a fast food burger joint, my oldest wanted the big burger, while the younger two ordered kids meals… the kids meals came with chocolate milk, so my oldest asked if he could go back up and order a chocolate milk… I quickly said no…. my wife looked at me and said could you try to explain Why? So I explained that the hamburger cost more than the kids meals, and that we all had our water bottles in the car…..
My son acquiesced and a wave a guilt swept over me….
I immediately regretted being so cheap! I realized that my instinct is always to say “No!” It’s cheaper and results in fewer obligations. But my wife and I had made it… both have great incomes and have a net worth (excluding housing) that is multi-millionaire level. Here I was being ridiculously cheap over a less than $2 expense! I gave my son my credit card and said go ahead and get yourself a drink.
When I look back on my 40+ years of life, my regrets seem to stand out more than the memories I want to recall. Sure, we have lots a great memories, especially as a family, but I regret how I teased one person in HS, and moments that I didn’t give my all or best…. This will probably be one of those regrettable moments. Why was I being so cheap with the ones I love the most, the ones that we have created an abundant environment. “No” as an immediate reaction is not the same as thoughtful spending/saving. That is not the life I want to live and share.
You’re thoughtful about it all, so I think you’re won most of the battle. Don’t beat yourself up too hard. Your frugal ways got you to where you are now, so while you don’t have to live quite the same way, I don’t think any of us should dismiss how we were.
How fortunate are we to be able to have these conversations? Life is good!
To me what was missed was opportunity cost of not working. You guys are currently spending a lot in terms of opportunity cost on not working. It’s your money dial. If you just kept working you would have significantly more money but less time together, with friends, and family. That choice was very expensive and one you spent lavishly on.
Just an observation and may not be relevant, but advertising money is more likely to go to people promoting high net worth individuals working and spending money on experiences and things vs. a guy with a blog who show those high net worth individuals how to leave the workforce and live simply under $50k a year.
To take your first point further, if I had a redo, I’d have even less money because I would have spent less time working…
Dear Carl,
Last 11 days have been the best summer of my life. I reached home and still thinking it was a dream to meet all of you. I cannot describe my feelings in words. Just want to say be Happy as always and shine like a North Star in my life.
Cheers!
I’m the lucky one to have friends like you in my life! Let’s meet up again soon.
This is a great blog post! I have been struggling with money for a long time and I really appreciate your advice. I am going to start following your advice and I am going to find a friend with benefits to help me out.