The hardest task in the world
As you may know, we’re currently in the middle of a really big remodel. I am trying to do as much of it as I can myself, but some parts are just too much for me to handle. Specifically, I need someone to help me out with some of the carpentry.
I am convinced that finding good, skilled trade workers is one of the most difficult tasks in the world. Here are a list of items that I’d have an easier time with:
- figuring out nuclear fusion
- bringing peace to the Middle East
- getting Mrs. 1500 to pump gas*
- having a fight free car trip with our daughters
- licking your elbow (try it, I dare you!) WARNING: If you’re at work right now, your co-workers may think you’ve lost your mind
- getting my youngest child to be quiet for longer than 5 minutes**
I spent a month looking for someone. First, I contacted some folks I knew in the area. They knew carpenters, but none of them had any interest in the job. I contacted the village hall, got their approved list of builders and made a bunch of calls. I signed up for Angie’s List. In all, I called about 50 people. Out of those 50, 2 came over to look at the job. Neither of those 2 called me back after that.
Desperate times call for desperate measures
I love Craigslist. I use it almost weekly to either sell stuff I no longer need or acquire used items. However Craigslist is a horrible place to find skilled workers. I’ve completed many, many projects and I’ve tried many times to find help on Craigslist. So far, I’m about 1/20 or a success rate of 5%. My thought is that if you’re good at what you do, you’re getting all the work you need through word of mouth or more conventional means.
Anyway, I told myself that I wouldn’t try to find workers on Craigslist again. However, after a month of fruitless searching, I was desperate. It was on Craigslist that I met Mr. Buttcrack Builder (MBB). His pants were perpetually falling down, treating us to unwanted views of his posterior.
MBB is DOA… Almost
At the very start, things went OK. MBB would show up and work 8 hours a day. However, he quickly and randomly would be a no-show. I told MBB that I’m patient and I don’t care if he needed a day off, but just to let me know. The message didn’t get through.
An inconsistent schedule was the least of the problems though. MBB was incredibly inconsistent with his work too. He could do good work. I saw it. He could also do very, very bad work. Unfortunately, I saw a lot of that as well. The quality of his work seemed to depend on what time of the day it was and what kind of mood he was in. I noticed he got sloppy towards the end of the day. I could also tell when he didn’t like doing a certain task. When he didn’t, the quality of his work went right down the toilet.
After a while, I could no longer tolerate MBB’s sloppiness. We sent him on his way with no one lined up to complete the work. Miraculously, we eventually did find someone decent, but that is a story for another day.
Today, I’d like to give you some advice on finding workers and how to know when you’ve hired the wrong person.
How to find decent workers and when you know when you’ve hired the wrong guy
Talk to neighbors: The best person you can find is one that your neighbors sing the praises of. There was one such guy in our ‘hood, but he was booked up for the next 8 months.
Craigslist: Craigslist is great for all kinds of stuff, but not for finding skilled workers.
Gratuitous displays of butt-crack: I have no idea if this one has any correlation to quality work. MBB was constantly showing his though. Avoid it if you can.
Be wary of desperate people: MBB was in a money crunch. I could tell from the little comments he made: “I hit a bunch of rough patches lately.” I later learned those rough patches went back at least a decade. I like to hire good, responsible people. I find that people who do good work also keep their financial house in order and live within their means.
Checking references isn’t useful: References are almost completely useless. If the builder has any smarts, they aren’t going to give you references who will trash their name. In lieu of references, I ask about the last 5 projects they’ve worked on including any current ones. I then ask if it’s OK if I go take a look at those projects and talk to the owners.***
Permits: Permits can be a pain, but any guy who warns you against getting a permit should throw up all kinds of warning signs.
Licensed: MBB first told me he was licensed. One day when the building inspector showed up, he freaked out: “I can’t let the inspector see me!” After the inspector left, he explained that he actually wasn’t licensed. Seemed like he and the inspector had a bad history. Plus, he had lied to me.
I Heart Tools: Tools are the lifeblood of a builder. I noticed MBB had crummy tools and treated them poorly. He would throw his framing nailer on the ground and then wonder why it didn’t work consistently. (When it misfired, he would bash it some more.)
Waste: MBB wasn’t careful with choosing which lumber to cut. I noticed that he wasted lots and lots of wood. This is not how I operate and I didn’t appreciate him wasting my money.
The most important tip of all: Do it yourself!
No one in the world cares more about your house than you. Most home improvements aren’t that hard. Sure, it can be intimidating, but you’ll get over it.
Take a look at this big pile of stuff in the picture to the right. My plumbing experience is very minimal. Right now, my experience is limited to swapping out toilets and hooking up a couple vanities. Over the next 2 weekends, I will plumb two new bathrooms. Am I nervous? Sure, a little. However, the key to my future success is right there in the picture too. Books!
I hauled my butt (no exposed buttcrack, much too cold) down to the local library and checked out every plumbing book that looked halfway decent. I supplemented my learning with YouTube videos. I am now confident that I can do a good job, but the best part is the money I’ll save. All of my plumbing parts including fancy PEX tools will run me about $500. For the sake of comparison, I did get a quote from a local company and they came in at $3,000. In 2 weekends, I’ll have a new set of skills and $2,500 in my back pocket.
Just do it
Next time the sink is leaking or you want to replace the nasty tile (looking at myself here), I strongly encourage you to give it a try. Take your time and be calm. I promise, you can do it. If you’re in Colorado, hit me up. Maybe we can work together one weekend.
Whatever you do though, do not hire Mr. Buttcrack Builder.
*Actual conversation just now:
- Mrs. 1500: The Element is on E
- Me: No it’s not, I filled it up this afternoon.
- Mrs. 1500: Filled it up? What does that mean?
**Our 4 year old is never quiet. Ever. Recently, we were all in the car and there was a miraculous and beautiful 30 seconds of quiet. It was at this time that the 4 year old piped up:
- 4 yo: Why is no one talking?
- Mrs. 1500: Well, we don’t have to talk all of the time.
- 4 yo <with a confused look>: Oh. why not?
***Mrs. 1500 note: I actually had a builder give me a reference for someone who was not pleased with his work. When I called them up, they said “I don’t know why he gave you my name, I am very unhappy with his work, I cannot get him to return my call, and I have a lawsuit pending against him.” Made for a fun phone call, and we knew immediately not to hire him. But don’t count on this to happen…
Join the 10s who have signed up already!
Subscribing will improve your life in incredible ways*.
*Only if your life is pretty bad to begin with.
1500,
This sounds like a rough project. Hiring contractors/plumbers/carpenters can be intimidating. I joined Angie’s List to find someone to redo my gutters. I recommend that over Craig’s List as they are specific to contract work. The company I picked fit the descriptions identically. Great with service and returning calls etc, good price, but a little sloppy on the work. Angie’s list is helpful if its in your area, but not perfect. DIY is always best if you can pull it off. Good luck with the rest of your project.
-RBD
Retire Before Dad recently posted…Developing a Game Plan Using Sector Weighting
We signed up for Angie’s List, but didn’t have great success with it. However, I now plenty who swear by it.
Thanks for the good luck!
Yes, do it yourself if you can. We hired a garage repair man because our garage door was out of alignment. In 30 minutes he fixed the job which consisted of pounding the frame with a hammer to move it more to the right and align, and spraying a spray to lubricate the metal frames. Cost: $125.
SavvyFinancialLatina recently posted…How a house is impeding me from becoming a BUM
Yes! My favorite are plumbers. One guy told once told me he charged $99/hour. Whoah, but wait, it doesn’t stop there! The first $15 minutes were $99 and the next 45 minutes were also $99. I swore on that day I’d do it myself from that point on.
I’m disappointed Angie’s List didn’t work out better for you guys. That is the one subscription that we gladly have on auto renewal because it’s been priceless to find good people.
Also, Mr PoP is right there with you on plumbing. Yesterday he plumbed in a valve to put hot water heater to his coffee maker, a huge luxury and he cursed it and called it black magic the entire time. But he’s so good at it! =)
Mrs PoP @ Planting Our Pennies recently posted…This American Life’s Ode to Sales
I’m probably the only one who hasn’t had success with Angie’s List.
Cursing is definitely a big part of my work too!
I’ve always been a little curious with Angie’s List, we tried Yelp a few times to price things out, but our contractor ended up being someone who our inspector recommended and he reviews/inspects the work done on 203K loan jobs for 30 years, he gave us 5 people and said they all do good work, see who you like, he kept things in budget and workers where there. I’m not saying he is HGTV Quality, but great job overall for us.
So maybe that’s my recommendation. Find someone who works with contractors on a regular basis, so possibly real estate agents, 203K loan inspectors, etc. I listen to Bigger Pockets Podcasts from time to time and one idea that I thought sounded brilliant, was go to Home Depot at 6 am and hang out by the Pro’s/Contractors Desk and talk with a couple of them, anyone there at 6am is a guy that’s going to show up for a job and means business. I have not tested this, but it passes the “makes sense to me” criteria.
Steven recently posted…How We Are Cutting Costs on Our Cell Phone and You Can To……Republic Wireless Review
Wow, that is a pretty great tip on going to Home Depot at 6am. Also, I had not idea Bigger Pockets had a podcast. I’m signing up for it now!
Also, Angie’s List has not worked well for me. However, I know plenty of folks who have had great success with it.
Too funny! I have yet to have to go to Craigslist for construction work, but we are leaving a lot of our old home as it was and only do actual repairs, rather than upgrades and remodels. We figure it’s our first home and will probably be leaving the area in the next 3-4 years, so some of the things I’d like to do (upgrading windows, maybe adding on an ensuite bath for the master) won’t have a positive ROI. We’ll have to save those sort of jobs for our next home.
Hilarious exchange on the Element, too!
Done by Forty recently posted…Mindless Accumulation
That is a wise move; you’d never get your money back.
We are planning on staying at our place for at least 15 more years (youngest one will be done with high school then), so it’s worth it to us. Also, because I’m doing much of the work myself, it will cost less than half of what it would have if we paid someone to do it all.
I agree, finding good contractors is an absolute nightmare. Why is it so hard to give somebody money to do a job? We had our furnace crap out on us on a cold weekend, and I called the emergency number for a well-known HVAC company. The guy on the phone told me he needed to find out where “his guys” were, and he would call me right back. Never did. Fortunately my dad was able to figure it out. I tried to get a quote for a plumbing project, same deal. Can’t tell you how many times I’ve tried to get someone to do a job only to be told “*Sigh* The earliest we could get someone out there is probably sometime in 2025.” And if you’re a woman, it’s all the worse.
I thought it was unique to our area, but I guess not. There is a desperate need for good, ethical, hard-working tradesmen.
Jen @ Jen Spends recently posted…Quick Tip: How to open a stuck jar lid
You echo my sentiments EXACTLY!! The thought that I’ve had many times is this: I’d live to give you money to use your trade at my home. Can’t you at least call me back?
It’s worth doing it yourself to avoid this frustration alone!!!
The conclusion that I’ve come to is that these guys think about 10 minutes ahead. If they have a job lined up right now, nothing matters after that.
The problem is that there is so much more demand than supply for what they do. As someone who works among tradesmen, I can guarantee that the good, smart, business-savvy ones have jobs lined up for usually a year. And they have so much work they are willing and able to turn down jobs that pay less or are unappealing. Unfortunately, that leaves poor tradesmen out there to fill the gap and you get people like MBB. There’s good money to be made as a tradesman with some business sense.
“As someone who works among tradesmen, I can guarantee that the good, smart, business-savvy ones have jobs lined up for usually a year.”
Wow, this seems to be the story everywhere.
Onto another point: I read today about how there are no jobs in this economy. There are actually tons of them; people are just too lazy to do what it takes to get them.
Learning to be more handy is near the top of my list. But having a pressing need for a job done definitely helps motivate!
Dave @ The New York Budget recently posted…Being Generous and Frugal: A Goal for 2014
Yes, it sure does. It is much easier for me just to do it myself than to try to find someone who will probably botch up the job anyway.
I love doing home improvements. Freaks my wife out, but I really enjoy it.
Show her what a plumber costs. That will really freak her out!
I enjoy it too. Some of it can be intimidating, but you just have to take it slow.
When you retire, would you ever contemplate becoming a licensed contractor to supplement your income? It seems like you’re learning a lot from your experiences. It’s so sad though that you had to go through with that. I’m not a home owner but I’ve had plenty of terrible experiences with car repairs, especially at Ford dealerships (all across country too) so I’ve learned you can never trust a reputable name. True references from close acquaintances are the way to go for recommendations.
Tara @ Streets Ahead Living recently posted…Materialistic Envy is So Easy to Catch
I’m not sure. Most people are good and reasonable, however I’m worried about the 1% that aren’t.
Example: I put in a Pergo floor for someone once and one piece had a small flaw on the surface. She insisted that the piece be replaced. Since it was one of the first pieces we put it, we had to tear out a couple hours worth of work to get back to that point.
If that person wasn’t a friend, I probably would have flipped my lid just a little bit!
In response to Mrs. 1500, he was probably hoping that you weren’t actually going to call his references! Some people will ask for them as a standard and then never check.
But this just reinforces that you should always check references!
This Life On Purpose recently posted…2014: The Year Without Resolutions
Yeah, I don’t know what that guy was thinking. My theory was he didn’t have many brain cells firing…
I think that is the big difference of what can happen when someone else does the work and when you do the work. Someone else finds “good enough” acceptable where you would not since you have to live there. That and why settle for good enough when it can be great and you get to learn some new skills as well. Skills that could very well earn you some free beer down the road. 🙂
Micro recently posted…Making the switch to Republic Wireless
Oh yes, I work for beer! Good beer!
Your point is very good though. Most people just don’t care that much. The ones that do will cost you an arm and a leg.
I just busted out laughing when I read what your kiddo asked! I can’t wait for kids. I might ask you for help with a small tiling project…might. Just a warning.
Michelle recently posted…The less you owe, the more you grow!
Ha, kids are great! Most of the time.
I’ll help with your tile, seriously!
I’m very lucky I have a trusted handyman as I am useless when it comes to this stuff. I don’t buy fixer uppers because I don’t understand the business of renovations. We were lucky to find a house all fixed up in a neighborood of older homes.
charles@gettingarichlife recently posted…Why Do You Choose Material Items Over Your Loved Ones?
Good for you for finding someone decent. That is a gift!
I’m in the middle of our crazy renovation and I’m envying you at this moment.
Whoa, that’s so shady about lying with the license!! We usually try to go word of mouth or find someone on Yelp with high ratings. We do take it with a grain of salt, though (too high and I think it’s mostly their friends, too low and it might possibly be just a curmudgeonly customer), but so long as they have about a 4 or so then they’ve worked out. B’s a huge DIY’er just like you, too, so that helps!
anna recently posted…Confessions of a Somewhat-Procastinating Early Bird with a Love-Hate Fitness Relationship
Yeah, this guy was a scumbag. I am usually pretty good at filtering people. Not this time.
That is great the B is a DIY’er! I think that we’re a dying breed.
I am glad my hubby can do any home repair/project/reno – I wouldn’t want to look at anybody’s butt crack but his! 😉
You married a good man SusieQ! Never take his stills for granted!
My parents had a nightmare builder when they did an extension a few years back. Maybe it was MBBs English cousin?! 🙂
My tip for any DIY is clear the diary. There’s nothing worse than feeling like you have to rush a job.
theFIREstarter recently posted…The Badass Cookery Class: A Beginners Guide
Dah, so it’s not just an issue in the states. Is the exposed buttcrack in issue in other parts of the world too?
Oh yea that they teach that in construction 101 class over here it’s so widespread (maybe not the best choice of word there sorry. Eurgh!) I reckon!
Hahahaha…Oh man, I’m only laughing cause I can SO relate to that, 1500! Man, I feel you and I hear you….DIY is the way to go!
Ha, I’m sorry you can relate! If it were up to me, I’d never hire another person as long as I lived.
We are in the process of looking at having another house built. I plan on doing a lot of the stuff myself to help save money. Great post and very informative of the realities when it comes to home renovations.
Brick By Brick Investing | Marvin recently posted…TSP F Fund
Just take your time. Better to spend an extra month or two and get the right people or do the job right than to rush it.
Hi I know exactly what you are talking about. I work for a property management company and the construction people used for floors, cabinets and building repairs drive everyone crazy. They will start projects, deciding they “can’t work” with whoever or whatever is going on and then they will keep saying they will come do the job but never show.
Unfortunately they are not going to be fired because the construction boss is friends with, you guessed it, my bosses and some of the property owners. You can imagine the position this puts me in and my only consolation is that the tenant will get fed up and file a complaint or call a health inspector or whatever is needed and suddenly everyone shows up and the work gets done.
I have had several people ask me to refer them, including one that was a million dollar job and I simply say I can’t give ANY kind of recommendation on their work, look at the person inquiring and walk off. Maybe it’s petty, but you can’t really say I am badmouthing them as it isn’t up to me to recommend them as I am not the one hiring or managing them. However, the look on my face must say it all because I have never heard of these guys being hired by anyone who inquired about them and I know the million dollar contract went to someone else.
So I feel your pain, trying to find a good trades person is like dating and trying to find that perfect one, or at least someone you can talk to, they do decent work and in the end everyone goes home happy. So far the company hired an electrician, painter and found a decent plumbing company so at least I feel lucky in that!
Why oh why is it so difficult to just do your job and do it well? Why on earth are these workers such doofuses? This is exactly why I do as much as I can. This weekend, I replumbed my basement. This evening, I wired a bunch of stuff up in my kitchen. Do I want to do this stuff? Not really. However, its a heckuva lot easier and cheaper and less frustrating than hiring out!
I love your plumbing photo. I have literally checked out 3 of those plumbing books from my library (I am installing a new water heater, softener, and doing the plumbing on our kitchen remodel).
Talking to friends helps. I was doing the the DWV runs for the kitchen sink, washing machine and a floor drain needed for the softener and wasn’t entirely confident how to vent everything properly. Luckily my wife’s cousin’s ex-boyfriend does plumbing, so I gave him a call and he offered to take a look a my work so far. He said everything looked good so far except for a spot where I put a sanitary tee that should have been a wye (don’t install sanitary tee’s horizontally fyi). He gave me good suggestions on how to properly vent everything (and to code to boot!).
Good luck with your remodel.
Ha, those Ts will get you! Really though, plumbing is easy with PVC and PEX. I actually think it’s fun, although maybe that is the PVC glue talking. You save LOADs by doing it yourself too. Plus, how much fun is it to go to Home Depot 5 times per day because the fitting you need isn’t one of the 493 you already have lying around? Well, that part isn’t too fun, but it’s not painful for us since HD is 2 miles away.
Make sure that whoever does the build needs to be professional builders with good reviews.
commercial contractors Fortworth recently posted…A Construction Tradition that Costs You Money!