And rescue me from me,
And all that I believe.I won’t deny the pain,
-Galapagos, Smashing Pumpkins
I won’t deny the change,
And should I fall from grace
Here with you,
Will you leave me too?
Why Ramit?
This was the first thing Mindy said to me this morning:
- Mindy: The podcast that we recorded with Ramit is now live.
- Me: Oof. Well OK then.
Recording with Ramit was rough. It was 3+ hours of difficult questions and long periods of silence where I sat thinking. After the experience was done, I was exhausted and nauseous.
Hearing that’s it’s live launched an armada of butterflies in my stomach. Why do it in the first place then? I hoped to help me and you.
For Me
I have never had a good relationship with money. Parts of my childhood were chaotic and money has always felt like a security blanket. It’s not a resource to be spent on happiness, but one to defend against problems.
I chose a career that I knew would bring me a big paycheck. Yay computers! At my first job, I watched friends buy fancy cars while I hoarded the money. Mindy and I fixed up homes, made even more money, and then hoarded that as well.
And it’s easy to move the goalposts. I’m sure that at some point in my life, I thought that $500,000 was incredible wealth. And then I get there and $1,000,000 sounded a lot better. Then $2.000,000. But why stop there?
Hey look! Another house just popped up in my email that’s a good deal. We’ll buy it, fix it up, and earn some more money. I may be working 90 hours a week and living in a perpetual state of exhaustion, but that security blanket sure feels good.
So I agreed to talk to Ramit to hear his thoughts on my thoughts. My main takeaway is how silly it is to continue to optimize my life around money. (Ramit even told me to stop using the O word.) Why do I obsess over the cost of even small purchases. How silly I am to not use the money for things that will bring me joy or improve my life.
Next
I still have to work to do, but talking to Ramit caused me to take some immediate actions:
- I booked a cruise for my family, my mom, my siblings, and their partners. I’m paying for the whole thing. A cruise will be a great way to bring the family together.
- When possible, Mindy and I will hire out tasks that we don’t want to do.
- I let my daughters each pick a dream vacation for us to go on before they graduate high school. Older Daughter chose a road trip from Seattle to San Diego. Younger Daughter picked a week in New York City.
- If something will bring joy, I’ll just purchase it instead of dwelling on the cost. The most recent example of this was a helicopter ride in Hawaii. It. Was. Incredible. I’m aviation geek and this was my first time being on a helicopter. That would have been enough. But seeing Kauai from the air was f***ing jaw-dropping. This is something I never would have dreamed of doing 6 months ago (“Waste of money!”). Now, I’ll do it again in a heartbeat next time I’m in Hawaii or anywhere else with great scenery. I enjoyed it so much, I downloaded the helicopter flight manual and looked up flight schools when I got back home from the ride. I’m not going to learn how to fly a helicopter, but it was fun to think about it for a bit.
For You
Why share all this publicly? I could have found a private therapist instead of Ramit.
One reason I started this blog was to share my journey. I thought that being open and honest about money could help some other folks out. Isn’t it sad that money is such a taboo topic? It’s quite ridiculous.
Maybe this conversation with Ramit will help some of you too. I hope you’ll learn from my successes, but there is more to learn from my mistakes. Investing isn’t complicated. This stuff is:
- Living a purposeful life with meaning and growth.
- Having great relationships with family.
- Having really good people in your daily life.
- Finding your weaknesses, acknowledging them, and then working on them.
That stuff is a lot harder. But it’s so much more worthwhile than just trying to create a bigger net worth number.
Thanks Ramit
I believe that most money problems aren’t actually about money at the core. Something else is wrong and the problem manifests itself in some sort of money issue. For example, couples don’t fight about money. They fight because their views on spending or saving are misaligned. Those views are a reflection of values. It goes deep.
My money hoarding tendencies were borne out of trauma and insecurity. I need to make peace with myself and I’m not quite there yet. But I’m a little bit better as a result of this interview. And that’s all I can ask for.
Thanks FIRE for giving me the time to work on myself. Thanks Ramit for giving us some hours of your time.
Mindy and I talked about recording the show on Mile High FI:
- Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/mile-high-fi-podcast/id1565833096
- Google: https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly9taWxlaGlnaGZpLmNvbS9mZWVkL3BvZGNhc3Q
- Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/3UehnLcmk0RFkEDmhHLZZV?si=_Zbv1sQ_S8eKZv7DgXovpA
More 1500 Days!!!
You can also find me (and the dinosaurs) at:
Mile High FI podcast:
Also here:
- Facebook: Facebook group and page
- YouTube: My channel is mostly devoted to home improvement, but I have some other material coming up soon too.
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Thanks Carl for taking the difficult route.
I heard the podcast when I was in gym earlier today. I came back and started watching it on TV so that I could see the reactions. It was a brutal session. My 9 year old son felt you are stressed.
Don’t get me wrong I love Ramit’s podcast. But I love you guys more.
Like personal finance is personal, spending money is very personal too. I think you would naturally start to spend more as we feel secure.
I am excited for you guys are taking action already. I will pick a couple of things from journey.. learn and execute a few.
Hope we get to discuss more once we meet next time.
Cheers.
Thanks Rakesh for the kind comment. It was difficult, but Ramit helped us. I’m really thankful for that.
I’m also really thankful that I get to see you soon!
I’d been eagerly awaiting that podcast episode ever since I heard you mention it a while back. After listening to it, all I could think was thank you, thank you, thank you! A thousand times thank you to you and Mindy for doing it. Given what you mentioned in this blog post as your goal for doing it, I can tell you that you absolutely nailed it as to me. Thanks again to you and Mindy.
You’re welcome! Thank you for the kind comment! Hope to see you around town again soon.
Just finished the episode on YouTube and I loved it, as “celebs” in the FIRE community, I thought. Jt was very brave of you to publicity talk about money issues, thank you for doing that.
I’m alao happy for you thwt you did exactly what you said you would with the Hawaii holiday.
Ooh, “celebs” may be a strong word, but thank you for the comment.
PS: Helicopters are the best!
Thanks for sharing Carl! A lot of us are in the same boat as you and I appreciate your transparency!
Thank you Carl for always having the courage to truthfully share. I find your post inspiring and full of warmth and honesty.
You’re welcome! Thank you for the comment.
I am listening to the episode and nodding along to far too many things that you and Mindy say. I appreciate you both for sharing your journey, so that we can all learn and hear the things we also needed to hear. ❤️
Revanche @ A Gai Shan Life recently posted…My kids and notes: Year 8.4
Thank you Revanche! I hope 2023 is going well!
Interesting interview, it’s tough to be that vulnerable.
Do you think if you sold off the concentrated stock position that you doubled down on (and won a second time!) it would help you spend? I’ve watched that with fascination and wonder if the unwillingness to sell that is holding back your ability to enjoy the money.
I don’t think it holds us back now, but it could potentially in the future. I don’t mind selling small bits off, but if we ever wanted to make a big purchase (>$100,000), this would be difficult:
-> I still believe in the stocks I own. They are long-term plays and I don’t want to sell before my hypotheses has played out.
-> I’m sitting on some big capital gains.
-> I believe that the next couple of years could be great for stocks. Rates may not go down for a while, but when they do, get out of the way!
I’m typing this from beautiful Salida where Mindy and I have considered moving to once our girls have left the nest. A house here would cost $1,000,000. Perhaps we’d buy one now though if we didn’t have the tax bill…
The tax bill is only a small percentage of all the profit that you made. Don’t let the tax tail wag the money dog. And don’t let the money tail wag the life dog.
This is good advice. I tend to focus on the not-so-big downside (tax bill) and not the incredible gains. Thank you for the reminder.
The only reason I ask that is I’ve seen comments about “holding this for 10 years” on prior blog posts. Is there something big you’re planning on doing at 60? Does another 100% gain in this company change your life at all? You know the math of how much income that amount of money, post tax, could generate in something as risk free as treasuries today. The lack of investment cash flow or not viewing that stock holding as “spendable money” might be holding your mindset back.
I don’t say that to criticize the choice, congratulations on winning twice. I say it as someone who struggles every time I hit the sell button out of our concentration in Costco and need to continue to do it. We love the company and shares going from $82 to $525 over the course of a decade did great things for our FI numbers, but it’s not spendable money if we refuse to ever sell it.
Thanks for being vulnerable about this, most FIREy people have reasons for their emotions and habits around money.
I cringed when I read the transcript because those questions were really uncomfortable and I would give the same answers. I can see why you were traumatized, LOL. Also 50 and would look at menu price before going to a new restaurant.
It struck me when Ramit said he didn’t believe you wanted to change as I feel that’s where I am. How did you make the switch and do you still go back to old patterns?
Yeah, I’m not sure why Ramit said we didn’t want to change. Perhaps because we kept justifying our behavior.
Regarding your question, I have some thoughts:
This one hit me like your original the awakening post. I feel so similar even though we are somewhere between coast FI and OMY territory.
I related to the story of the plane tickets and so many other pieces. I literally just booked the most expensive vacation and kept talking about the $$$ to my wife. I need to stop that mindset as well. The reality is many of us have come from a money scarcity background so security was at the beginning of many of our journeys. Once we obtain security, then we must decide….now what. The bit with teaching your children I also related to. How to teach them to save / be efficient / the O word. I also agree with your assessment of a positive asterisks grade, however his challenge is to take that grade you already have locked in and improve on it. Setting a good example for your kids is one of the most challenging pieces of being FI. So much to digest here, just wow. Really interested if you and Doug discuss more now that it’s been a few weeks, how it has impacted you.
It’s hard to turn it off, right? I remember struggles with money and related stuff from my childhood very vividly. For my 5th birthday, my parents gave me on radio flyer wagon. That night, I left it outside and someone stole it. I remember asking my mom for another one and she said, “No. You shouldn’t have left it outside and since you didn’t take care of it, we’re not buying you a new one.” I was devastated, but it was a good lesson. Regarding money: “You want that thing? Better go get a job so you can buy it.”
Doug and I recorded a podcast about recording with Ramit (it should go live today), but we will record another one now that I’ve had time to digest it all.
Thanks for the kind words!
Carl and Mindy, thanks for sharing your discussion with Ramit. It felt so honest and real. There was no appeasing Ramit just for the sake of it, and yet, I knew you were both thinking hard about changing and reassesing in real-time. I, too, have been thinking a lot about my relationship with money over the past couple years and I certainly have a few things I am working on. For example, I still deal with frequent buyer’s remorse…even after I’ve decided the purchase will definitely be worth it, what?!? I could relate to many things you and Mindy described and the strong values and beliefs that have have gotten you to the great place you are today. I agree with you that it is important to keep improving and facing “weaknesses” head on. Interestingly, I often talk to people about how our super strengths can become weaknesses when they are over utilized or even applied in the wrong context. When the context changes, it is important to reevaluate possibilities and behaviors, and I love that you are both doing that. It can be an awesome skill to be a savvy saver, but when and how might it become a weakness? I can only imagine how uncomfortable recording and releasing the episode must of been, I really commend you both. I think we can all learn a lot from listening to each other’s stories and journeys, especially the less perfect ones. Thanks.
I have both of those episodes queued up for the road-trip out to Colorado for CampFI RM Week 1 and FinTalks, so I will see you soon! But I’m disheartened that cousin Josh was not invited on the cruise. Maybe if he had the details, he could come crash it 🙂 jk but I feel like that’s the #1 thing I’m known for nowadays.
On a serious note, perhaps you would also benefit from the Trauma Of Money course. I know that our fellow financial bloggers Bridget Casey and Alyssa Davies have taken it and HIGHLY recommend it via their channels and podcast. Alyssa is even becoming a TOM professional to help others.
Thanks for sharing your story with Ramit. After watching it and taking time to think about how I personally think about money, it really opened my eyes. I have been in this eco-chamber of the FIRE community since 2016 and my views on money have really been molded in a certain way. I don’t think there is any wrong with the FIRE movement, and thank it for getting me to a position of FI. However, I have never really stepped back and looked at some of the emotional, mental attitudes or mindset being a part of the community can create. A recent example is the push back and comments (is FIRE becoming spendy..) about MMM’s recent post about the buying a Tesla. We all know a purchase of a Tesla is not going to break the bank for Pete and he is not all of sudden going to go on buying binge. I can only imagine the extra pressure of change for someone being a part of the FIRE community and having a high visible profile like yourselves. Thanks for making this change public and sharing with us.
Listening to the podcast now. I am interested in the interview w/Ramit on Mindy’s podcast. Can you link that? I can’t seem to find it (Ramit’s show notes aren’t great apparently).
Also I thought he was a little hard on you guys. He preaches spending on what you love, and ruthlessly cutting costs on what you don’t. But it seems like he was on you guys to spend money on stuff you may not value. Then when you spent the money on the concert he said you were trying to prove something.
At any rate, I appreciate the interview and honesty. I am not FI but struggle with some of the same issues – spending on things I really enjoy (wanting to take a bike tour myself) and balancing with day to day life, expenses, work, etc.
Congratulations for declaring success and beginning the process of changing habits. The whole point of saving is to eventually spend.
I’ve watched and waited for this for several years now.
I know there won’t be a clean break with the past but you really have articulated the change you needed to make. Nothing worse than the regret of missing the things you could have done.
Force yourself to spend the full 4% for a few years. You will enjoy the change.
Wishing you and the family all the best.
When I was on holidays by myself just before covid, I took a helicopter joyride in Albury, New South Wales. Yes – isn’t it amazing how much you can see from up there?
One important reason why I spent the money was that I had a feeling that every time I see a helicopter in the sky, I’ll remember that joyride.
It’s true. WHAT A BARGAIN!!! I’ve been on that joyride a hundred times and only had to pay for the first one!!
I really enjoyed listening to you and Mindy talk to Ramit. This can be a major opportunity to help others in the FIRE world. People want to talk about money but never the why’s and what your preconceived notions are from childhood. I think you can help people make the money (as you have been doing) but also open the conversations about why you spend the way you do or don’t spend. It’s like life, it’s about balance. Congrats on the spends you’ve done, I’ve done the helicopter ride and it’s amazing!!!
Hi Jackie!
Thank you for the comment!
I’ve been doing a LOT of thinking lately. While my daily life is pretty great, we’re going to change some stuff up too. Do you know of a castle I could rent to host 50-100 people for a week or so? 🙂
Hey Carl, long time reader/first time writing a comment. I do not follow Ramit’s podcast and do not consider myself a fan of his material, but I was compelled to listen when I knew the guests were you and Mindy. You guys were very courageous for being vulnerable and knowing the whole FIRE community was going to listen in. Just wanted to express my gratitude for doing that…I think many of us can relate to your struggles with money (especially spending it once you have it). Glad to see others like MMM appearing to come to similar realizations. I know it’s hard for you and for many of us. I’m sure there are many like me that do not write comments, but trust me you guys are making an impact in many people’s lives. So again THANKS!
Jose! Thanks so much for the kind comment. I didn’t think anyone would listen to that podcast, but it seems like half the world has! 🙂
My core, daily life is pretty great and I wouldn’t change much about it, even if I had infinite money. However, Mindy and I are planning some big spending on friends and giving. More soon…
Just the poorly written mutterings from a first time poster….
I admit I’m a bit disappointed. Ramit has had a meteoric rise in the personal finance world with what I think many in the FI community would consider a flawed perspective. He approaches it from a position of authority and almost patronizing confidence in his own beliefs. Carl, he seemed patronizing toward you! A man who has built up almost a leadership role within the FI community and who is at least 10 years Ramit’s senior. I was rooting for you to turn the tables and give him one of MMM’s famous mental face punches for believing that spending was the cure-all for life’s miseries.
In my eyes, FI is about more than just penny-pinching to reach early retirement. It’s about a recognition in what is truly important in life, and what really makes us happy. “Spend lavishly on what you love, but cut mercilessly on things you don’t” is an inherent assumption that the spending on what you love is where we’ll derive joy which we know is not true. I recently watched his talk to Google (Available on youtube). and the crux of his messaging is almost centered around this concept that you really can be happy if you just realize that you can spend spend spend on certain things. Love first class flying? Do it more just cut elsewhere! Isn’t there something deeper to think about there? When was the last first class flight that provided lasting happiness to the audience member in question? In fact, his messaging is in direct opposition to people finding a deeper sense of joy in life and limits their ability to reach the freedom that FI can bring, a freedom at the core to any human sense of well-being.
I admire a recognition in having a mental hangup around scarcity and being so vulnerable and open about your life but I really don’t think it matters whether one finds themselves in FI due to healthy motives or fear. In either case it brought us all to a place where we have begun to learn about the human mind, not just about money. About hedonism, about joy, about having enough, about peace, about values.
At one point he called out Mindy for focusing on what she doesnt want rather than what she wants (saving vs buying). Those are two sides of the same coin. Many people get a thrill out of saving. The saving is the doing, not the act of not-doing merely because it’s the act of not spending.
But what do I know? I could be wrong.
Damn, that’s a helluva comment and I mean that in a good way.
Random thoughts:
Money may not be easy, but it’s pretty simple. Compound interest, the 4% Rules, 401(k)s, index funds; you could learn in all in a day.
Happiness, fulfillment, joy; now that’s a tough nut to crack. I think that most people don’t even understand what makes them happy. Commercials tell us buying a new object will do it, but good luck with that.
My favorite times in life are those spent with good friends. A great conversation in the back yard can be an experience I remember for years. It doesn’t cost any money. However, what I’ve been thinking about is perhaps I could use money to elevate the time with friends (rent a nice house and invite a bunch of people to spend time there) or if friends are in other parts of the world, travel there to see them.
I like my daily life just fine. I’m good with my house and my stuff. Nothing needed there.
The last thing that comes to mind for me is spending money to save time and make life a little easier. Examples of this are TSA Precheck, booking flights later in the day so I sleep well the night before, and not using a lot of time to shop for the best price.
With Ramit, I felt that I was on my heels the whole time. He helped us in many ways, perhaps giving us permission to spend big. If I were to talk to him again, I’d push him on happiness.
Life is good.
This is a great reflection / response Mr. 1500.
Hey Carl, I am glad to read Devon’s comment. My feelings were similar, listening to the podcast yesterday, filled with advertisments, calls to action and sales pitches I couldn’t help but wonder: easy to say spend as much and as heavy as you want, when your inflow is first of all significant and second of all in line with your message to the world. I am from Germany and part of FIRE since 2015 and have heard of Ramit before, but never actually listened or read anything of his, at least to my knowledge.
Nevertheless it seemed to me, that his message was truly needed with your approach to the spending topic. Would have liked a different wrapping and maybe someone else to bring it over, but whatever improves your life.
Greetings to Colorado
Hendrik
P.S. Glad you and your family liked Germany.
P.S.S. a comment Ramit wouldn’t like…studying in Germany is free for everyone, regardless of citizenship. Unless one would choose a private university, which no one does, because the public ones are highly rated. Money saved on tuition can provide for a lavish student and travel life. Just sayin…
Hendrik!
Thank you for the kind comment.
I never followed Ramit much until we were on the show. Now that I have, I too have noticed that he is always selling. So, I guess I’m ahead of him in the quality that I don’t try to earn more money.
I wonder what his level of Enough is?
Also, I can’t wait to make it make to Germany. What an amazing place. I loved every bit of it and just barely scratched the surface.
Well said. I had the same thoughts when watching the interview.
I wanted to add my thanks to the pile carl. I’m very fortunate that I found FI and began this journey. And even more fortunate that I found you and your writings about 2-3 years ago. I was on a path of having more money than I would spend (lol yep, money as a security blanket) and yet was also on a path of running out of life.
Your being public about this process in your own life has given me the opportunity to think through these questions you ask yourself and are asked and I know it’s likely saved me 10-15 years of having the wrong focus.
Thank you for being vulnerable, you’ve helped change my and my families life for the better, and that positive ripple expands as I can share my experiences with others too!
Brandon-
Thank you so much for the kind note. I’m so glad that I was able to help you out.
The podcast actually got a lot of negative press. Stuff like: “These people with 4 million are unhappy!” These people are just twisting my words. Life is really, really good. But I think I can do even better.
Look me up next time you’re in Longmont or Northern Colorado!
I listened to the podcast without making the link to WHO Ramit was talking to. I came home to see your notification of a new post in my inbox and started reading that. Immediately I recognize you are who Ramit was talking to.
I thought it was a great podcast of albeit uncomfortable at times.
My takeaway’s:
Wasteful. Here’s the definition:
waste·ful
/ˈwās(t)fəl/
adjective
(of a person, action, or process) using or expending something of value carelessly, extravagantly, or to no purpose.
I think perhaps those in the RE phase of FIRE perhaps need to visit this definition, we’re too quick to categorize spending as wasteful..
For example: The Germany tickets did you spend carelessly, extravagantly or to no purpose? i think not. You couldn’t find a better deal, you reviewed options ( probably ad nauseum) and there was definitely purpose for the spending.
My other takeaway is pay someone to do some things. That one last project hanging the cabinet doors that was hanging over you? I was pleasing as I listened “hire someone”. Time can not be replaced, money can.
Thanks for a brutally honest discussion.
“I think perhaps those in the RE phase of FIRE perhaps need to visit this definition, we’re too quick to categorize spending as wasteful..”
You’re totally right. It’s easy to wrap your mind around wasting money. However, not living well and NOT spending can be a form of wasting time.
I’m getting better. I just blew $1,000 on a Taylor Swift ticket and have 0 regrets. I need to go to San Diego for something and while I don’t want to own a new Corvette, it’s only a couple 100 more to rent one.
Hi Carl, it’s been awhile! I learned about the podcast appearance from Mr. Money Mustache’s latest blog and felt I had to take a listen.
First off, I really enjoyed watching you guys on the show! (And cringed, of course, because I identified with it too.) I was particularly thinking about Ramit’s “You don’t really want to change” comment. Change doesn’t have to mean a 180-degree pivot. I think the changes you made seemed perfect for you.
I think my fundamental disagreement with Ramit is that while I think frugality can definitely go too far (I saw a post in a forum once where someone said they couldn’t bring themselves to buy groceries – yikes!) I think most people in our society have the opposite problem. I think those of us who are frugal can learn to ease up a little without having to completely change our values.
That said, I’ve come around a little on Ramit, especially after seeing his Netflix show – I think he’s reaching people that FI probably wouldn’t, and that’s cool.
Anyway it was really fun to listen to you guys, I think you did great and I am glad you pushed back a little too. Reading this post made me happy.
What’s happening?
I think Ramit’s core message is a pretty good one. However, he’s always selling as well, so there are other motives at play.
I’m thankful we got to talk to him. I’m at peace with it all. My life is great, but now perhaps I can turn the dial from 10 to 11 every once in a while and not feel bad or guilty.
Thank you for the kind comment!
I need to know what band you are hosting. My husband I want to do something similar. Loved your interview and understand the inclination to optimize everything.
Thanks for the kind comments!
Here’s the band: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLInyNq_HmTaWtMWdAGQ-GhThEdhVAP0c7
I read this post when it came out; I ignored it. skimmed at best. I watched the video over 8/7 – 8/8…. I’m not where you are right now, but – I’m comfortable. what stuck out was how much we restrict “anything”
we are 55/53 years old. I have expenses to take care of my house.. I have a job that is wavering – I live in fear. I’m reconsidering my fear now.. and looking for some basic experiences… all my effort to accumulate offers no life experiences… I’m not rich, I’m not where you are… but – without sharing numbers we are in the top 5-10% of the US… I’m not looking to “spend more” – but I am looking to spend on experiences, instead of existence.
let’s see what happens over the next few years. first goal is a Korea visit for the family.
Steve (NWOutlier)
Korea sounds glorious. It’s on my list too.
Don’t wait too long. Your body won’t wait forever.
And I get it. Fear is real, but life is short.
I admire you guys for talking with Ramit. I’ve followed many FIRE blogs, including yours, for the past decade, so I respect you for talking with someone who has such a different perspective, and Ramit’s perspective is certainly different! I look forward to seeing the guilt-free adventures that you guys will go on! Much respect!!
Thanks Kory!
Talking to Ramit was hard, but we’re in a better place for having done it. He gave us the kick in the ass that we needed.
This past weekend, we had a $10,000 guilt-free adventure: https://www.1500days.com/weekend-with-the-webb-brothers/