I watched Spinal Tap for the millionth time recently. It has a load of great lines including this one:
There’s a fine line between stupid and clever.
There’s also a fine line between cheap and frugal…
Don’t Be Cheap
I went hiking a couple of years ago with a group of folks. Afterward, we went out to lunch at a local restaurant and then back to my place to play games. One of the hikers seemed annoyed that we were going out to eat. Despite his wealth, he was living in a car and I’d seen him retrieving worn out clothes from the trash. So I suspected he was annoyed at spending money at a restaurant. He ordered the cheapest thing on the menu; a cup (not even a bowl!) of soup, and water.
An hour later at my place, he let me know that he was ‘really hungry’ and asked for food. I told him we had some leftovers and he helped himself to a heaping plate. After he was done, he said he was still hungry and asked for another plate.
**sigh**
Being in this community for a while, I’ve seen other examples of folks going too far including:
- Keeping the thermostat set to 55 in the winter. I also know someone else who keeps it at 85 in the Phoenix summer. Regarding the latter, how the hell do you sleep in that heat?!??
- Taking heaps of napkins and condiments from fast-food restaurants to use at home.
- Eating moldy food.
- The wealthiest person I know (9 figure net worth) asks for discounts on anything and everything.
- Buying the cheapest example of everything with no consideration for quality.
And I’m certainly guilty! I have:
- Taken flights at ridiculously early or late hours to save $40.
- Stayed in methy motels. If you’re wealthy, there’s no reason to stay at a place that may give you a communicable disease. Or even if you’re not wealthy.
When You Might Be Cheap
But what is the difference between frugal and cheap? Where is the line?
You’re cheap if:
It affects others. If your money saving adventures come at the expense of someone else, especially someone less well-off than you, that’s not good. My restaurant hating friend expects others to subsidize his lifestyle.
Your short-term saving causes long-term damage. Neglecting your health or the mechanical things in your life may save you a little upfront, but oil changes are cheaper than new engines. Gym memberships and good food are cheaper than heart attacks.
Moron math. I once had this conversation with someone:
- Them: I’m headed to Costco to fill up. Gas is $.07 a gallon cheaper there.
- Me: It’s a 40 mile round trip. Any cost savings are more than erased by the 2 gallons of fuel that it’s going to take you to get there and back.
- Them: But gas is cheaper there.
Side note: I have also had this strange-ass argument:
- Them: Cars with V8s get better fuel mileage than 4 cylinders.
- Me: Whaaaaaaaat???!?
- Them: A 4 cylinder engine has to work really hard, so it uses more gas. The V8 doesn’t have to work hard.
- Me: The V8 doesn’t have to work as hard because it uses more fuel.
- Them: Nope. 4 cylinders were invented by the oil companies so we’d buy more gas.
- Me: <see the image immediately preceding this section.>
You have an unhealthy obsession with saving money on something. Building on the point above, why are Americans so obsessed with fuel prices? Is the rest of the world like this? Why do you want to spend any of your valuable time on earth trying to game this?!?? And please heat or cool your house to a reasonable temperature!
You don’t value time. I’m guilty of this one and could give you loads of examples. Here are a couple:
- Spending hours an various travel sites trying to find the best prices on hotels and rental cars.
- On a conference trip, I took a city bus instead of a taxi or Uber from the airport. What should have taken less than half an hour took 90 minutes. I sacrificed valuable time with friends I rarely see to save $25.
You’re transactional/keep score. I used to know someone who would frequently make offers like this:
If you come help me for 2 hours with ____, I’ll help you at a future date for the same amount of time.
Keeping score is silly. Just be nice.
But Also, The Line Moves
The value of money and time swaps places as we grow old. My definition of wealth has changed:
- Young and broke: $10,000! Holy sh*t! I’m rich!
- Old and wealthy: I have a free afternoon!
So as we gain wealth, the line between cheap and frugal should naturally move:
- If you’re living in Debt City (me at 23), you’re not being cheap to take on tasks you don’t like. I’m looking at you auto repair including brake jobs, replacing exhausts, starters, and alternators. (I HATE working on cars!)
- But if I were to work on cars now, that would definitely be cheap! That’s something I’m happy to outsource. (Note: I’ve just done away with auto maintenance by owning electric vehicles: Chevy Bolt and Tesla Model Y.)
The line between cheap and frugal is always changing and it’s your job to change with it.
Don’t get me wrong; saving money is important. But don’t forget the goal. The purpose of Financial Independence is to become a more resilient, better, and happier version of yourself.
If you’re:
- neglecting your health, you’re making yourself more vulnerable.
- stepping on others to save a buck, you’re not a better person.
- completely focused on money at the expense of everything else, you’re missing the whole point FIRE.
Perhaps the most fun thing to do with money is to give it away. Mindy and I are ramping up our donor advised fund. It will be great fun to put our dollars to good use.
It’s also fun to be spontaneously generous to other humans. At a restaurant with friends, I’ll often intercept the waitress or waiter and pay the bill before it shows up at the table. That’s a lot more fun than ordering a cup of soup and a glass of water.
Do you know cheap people?
How do you deal with them?
To close, here are random photos from a recent trip that have nothing to do with this post:
More 1500 Days!!!
You can also find me (and the dinosaurs) at:
- What are you looking at?
I am guilty of the a few of those “cheap” things. The Costco gas example is so me. I even take jerry cans and fill up there and use those to fill up to avoid paying for higher gas prices or stretch out my trips to the gas station. I have a number of justifications in my head to convince myself I am not being cheap doing this.
– I will have a supply if there is a power failure or other short term issue where gas is not available
-Able to buy more gas in one trip to save more money (does this make up for the drive to Costco just to get gas…not likely)
-Costco gas is top tier and better quality than most discount stations.
-I get 3% back on my Costco credit card.
-In my mind if everyone filled up at the cheaper gas stations maybe the prices would be more competitive. It always bugged me that people would complain about high gas prices but never seem to care about doing anything to get the better deals on fuel.
The doing my own auto repairs are the same. It takes me longer, I get cut up knuckles and dirty but there are a few benefits.
-A sense of accomplishment when successful. (there a few repairs which I end up having to do twice or having to pay to get fixed)
-Last oil change at the dealership was over $200 and they screwed up and overfilled it. If I end up having to double check things might as well do it myself. I am able to do it for $60 using full synthetic oil and high quality filter and know I have done it correctly. These days there is not the same sense of care or workmanship making it really hard to find a good honest mechanic and if you do they are always very busy and hard to book.
Maybe our next car/truck will be an electric with less maintenance?
My wife and I are planning to FIRE this year and I agree lo0oking after health body/mind are more important once the money is taken care of. We have been lucky enough to overshoot our money goals so those two will be the focus. Giving/donating money is a great way to spend the excess money. Doing that while still alive and not waiting until the end is something we plan on doing too.
Gas cans! If you’re there anyway, it doesn’t seem like a bad idea. You’re saving time by not having to go there to fill up as often too.
“It always bugged me that people would complain about high gas prices but never seem to care about doing anything to get the better deals on fuel.”
What really drives me nut is when folks buy a ginormous vehicle, way too big for what they really need, and then complain about gas. Dude, it’s just you and your wife and you’re not hauling anything with that V8. Swallow your ego, get a Prius and shut up.
Oil changes: I still have two gas burners and do the changes myself too. The main reason now though is time. I can do it a lot quicker at home (same with haircuts!). But yeah, I’ve had oil change places overfill as well which isn’t good for the engine.
Congratulations on your upcoming retirement! To celebrate, you should make the pilgrimage out to FI Mecca Longmont! The mountains are pretty great in the summer!
Very much looking forward to the retirement, yes a pilgrimage to Longmont is on the travel list. I need to take a picture in front of “MMM HQ” or I guess now called “FI Collective”. Both Pete’s and your blog help kick start my FIRE plan. My planned FIRE date was 2024 and I am sad to say I am in year two of the dreaded OMY syndrome (wife didn’t want me to retire before her). My wife got a layoff notice which helped seal the deal and by this summer we will both be free.
Another cheapskate gas thing I do is plan my travel routes using gasbuddy or similar app pick Costco’s with gas bars along the way. They are mostly right near the major highways and always a cheap place to pickup a snack or other things on the way.
This is really good!
I sometimes think I’m cheap but some of that stuff you listed would end in a D between my wife and I. See, she’s never been keen on the whole FIRE thing, she’s just more traditional minded than me. However, she’s a pretty good sport and we carry no debt and have enough that if she wanted to quit her job she could. I also don’t have a like minded community around me which is bad/good? Bad that I don’t connect in real life so there isn’t the keeping up with the Jones’s fire version. But good that I can’t take it too far and become single :-). My 3 daughters and wife keep me from becoming too extreme. This used to bother me but as I age and found other things to do other than obsess on our savings rate I’ve become more chill.
Anyhow, just airing my thoughts. I’m glad you are still posting.
Cheers
Very well said! I am still in the accumulating time but I give 1% of the value of my portfolio per year for charity. Giving and living is fun!
Thanks for your thoughts!
My husband still laughs that anytime we get together with my family because they always ask and discuss at length the mpg for the car. So it appears, some families do not care about this. We got a plug-in hybrid in 2023 so our fuel efficiency is great!
Keeping the house at 58-60 degrees in the winter works for my family. We all tend to run hot. In the summer we have the house at 75 but ceiling fans running and this works.
> I also know someone else who keeps it at 85 in the Phoenix summer. Regarding the latter, how the hell do you sleep in that heat?!??
I agree. 85 is ridiculous. Personally, I prefer to keep the thermostat at 84 in the summer. Seriously.
This is actually one area where I know I am terribly abnormal. I must be cold-blooded or something, because my ideal thermostat settings are 70 for the heating in winter and 84 for the cooling in summer. It makes having house guests a bit of a challenge.
Oh man, as long as you’re comfortable in that.
I’m at the opposite side of this spectrum. 50 degrees is shorts/t-shirts weather. I lived outside of Chicago and my parents would turn the heat way down in the house at night, maybe even off. I remember being able to see my breath in the house at night. My parents had an electric blanket, but I did not. So maybe that’s how I ended up this way? Any maybe you grew up in the opposite situation? 🙂
Definitely the opposite situation. I grew up in South Florida. Here is a conversation I had with my mom once.
Me: “Mom, how do you say ‘iceberg’ in Spanish?” (I had learned about icebergs in school that day.)
Mom: “I have no idea, those aren’t a thing where I’m from.”
I would rather endure sweltering heat and humidity every single day and night, rather than feel a little bit cold.
Hilarious conversation! Also, at least according to Google:
Another AZ reader here,
Winter thermostat is 70 to 72.
Summer is 81 to 86. We don’t run any AC during peak hours and supercool, so it can get toasty before it kicks back in at 7pm.
People lose their minds over Costco gas. The lines in our town spilling out into the road…insanity!
Also as a person whose Prius just hit 220k miles I need a shirt that says, “Swallow your ego, get a Prius and shut up”. HA!
I love your thoughts on being spontaneously generous. I recently had a lovely moment where I bought a round of drinks at a bachelorette party and didn’t think twice about it. I recalled going to a bachelorette party in 2010 and melting into the background at the bar because I felt like I couldn’t afford to buy a round for everyone.
“People lose their minds over Costco gas.”
YES! At the worst, I’ve seen lines of 20 cars. At 2 minutes per car, that’s an hour wait! And it’s probably more than 2 minutes/car. To save a dollar. But waste time! Other Humans, sometimes your actions don’t make sense!
Congratulations on 220,000 miles! Toyota really hit a grand slam with the Prius. It’s complex technology, but even the first generation ones are really reliable.
And if you think a Prius is good, wait until you try an EV. Between our Bolt and Y, we have 90,000 miles on ours. I’ve spent $0 on Bolt maintenance. For the Y, I’ve bought tires (at about 45,000 miles), windshield wipers, and a cabin air filter. But the really great thing is the driving; quiet, one pedal, instant response. Perhaps not for everyone, but I’ll probably never buy another fuel burner.
Buying drinks: Way to go! It’s so nice to not be broke. But it’s also nice to reflect on the Broke Days because it gives you such an appreciation for now. Life is GOOD!
Carl,
That looks like a fun—but very chilly!—trip series. Make your way to Virginia, too! Free tour guides! Hell, we’ll charge you—so it’s not cheap! 🙂
I’ve got baby on my mind as you might imagine. I remember one of our larger expenses as we went through fertility treatments…and of course, I fully believe it makes sense to get second opinions/other options on the table for everything in life. I wouldn’t get a roof replaced by the first contractor that came along. So, I tried to apply the same logic.
Then I found myself worrying I was being financially focused for a very important, very personal medical treatment. I kept pushing myself to focus on outcomes from different providers; reviews and patient experiences. That’s what matters! But, it’s hard to break the habit that applies everywhere else in life’s little money decisions day-to-day. Still, I think we quieted the monster. But, I suppose this is to say that it can be hard to make that shift from young to old even with wealth, even with very important decisions that far out weigh the value of money. Always growing!
Chris@TTL recently posted…What FIRE Really Gave Us: A Path to Parenthood
Hi,
Great post, loved your take on the difference between being cheap and frugal. Really made me think about how we value time vs money.
I also write travel and lifestyle content and occasionally collaborate with blogs. Happy to contribute if you’re open to it 😊
Thanks for sharing!
Hope you and family are doing well… this is your last post from over a month ago so wanted to reach out to check.
thanks.
Hitendra!
Thanks for checking in! Life is good, just busy. But busy in a good way. At some point in my life, I’ll learn how to be bored. Not today though!
How are you?
I may pass through your neck of the woods in May!